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Comments on We need to talk about Abilities

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We need to talk about Abilities

+8
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The problem

Almost three years ago we introduced Abilities to Codidact as an improved system for granting activity-based permissions, such as allowing users who have made consistently great edit suggestions to edit posts without requiring approval. I'll defer to the linked posts on how Abilities function in detail.

I do still believe that coupling permissions with specific experience in the area of the permission is a good idea and should be kept as the basic premise of the permission system.

However, there are a three major issues I see with how our abilities system works currently:

  1. The Ability thresholds are calculated using the Wilson score formula we use for posts. This means, that the minimum number of (positive) actions needed and the minimum percentage of positive actions are directly coupled.

    In some cases this coupling can be inappropriate for the intended purposes. For example, a community might want a user to have suggested many edits to demonstrate experience but want to require only an average approved percentage of like 75%. In our current system this would not be possible.

    In some cases communities might want the opposite. They would want a high percentage of 95% edits approved, but because they have low activity they only want a small sample of 5 edits (which would of course mean that once one edit is rejected your amount of edits that need to be approved would rise drastically). This would also not be possible with the current system.

  2. Currently abilities are directly coupled with permissions. This means, that the system will check whether or not you have a certain ability and will infer your permission from this. This becomes a problem once a permission should be inferred from multiple abilities, because then the every time a permission is checked the code would have to keep in mind how exactly abilities bind to permissions, and if multiple permissions are coupled into one ability, because they are then affixed together as an all-or-nothing thing. However one might want to separate permissions from another for moderation purposes. A user might need to be banned from reviewing edits while their power to edit posts should not be restricted.

  3. The current system is based on specific existing abilities hard-coded in the application. However communities might want to change the ability progression to better match their individual needs.

A solution?

Therefore I am proposing some tweaks to how abilities are implemented:

  1. There are two factors: "privileges" and "abilities" (or "trust levels").

  2. Privileges are technical allowances, such as "may edit other people's posts without review", "may review suggested edits" or "may vote to close". A user can have or not have a privilege at any time.

  3. Abilities are steps on the progression ladder. Technically an ability consists of one or multiple privileges and a "win condition". If you earn an ability, you will be granted the privileges it contains.

  4. Privileges can be individually suspended by moderators (as abilities can be suspended for time/infinity right now). Abilities cannot be suspended because the only thing that goes beyond suspendable privileges are "bragging rights".

  5. Abilities are reached when its win condition is reached. A win condition may consist of multiple requirements, each of which must be completed. Requirements could be, for example,

    • minimum user age
    • obtaining a specific ability
    • minimum post count
    • minimum positively received post count
    • minimum percentage of posts positively received
    • minimum (suggested) edits
    • minimum approved/applied edits
    • minimum percentage of suggested edits approved
    • minimum flag count
    • minimum helpful flag count
    • minimum percentage of helpful flags
    • minimum close/delete votes
    • minimum effective close/delete votes
    • manual appointment (i.e. this ability can only be awarded manually)

As before, moderators would have all such privileges.

Something similar to the current ability progression should be set as standard, so that we have an ability trees not unlike this:

  • everyone (general path)
    • established user (general path)
      • editing posts (edit path)
        • editing tags (edit path)
      • closing posts (mod path)
        • deleting posts (mod path)
    • moderators

However communities would be free to change this progression as they like.

I think that these tweaks would allow better bootstrapping of communities and would allow it to better react to community size with configuring the ability system.

Discussion

What do you think? Do you have any other ideas on how to improve abilities?

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+3
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I've been thinking about abilities again lately (and for a while), because they're too hard to earn but just tweaking the Wilson numbers won't fix it. The fundamental problem is that a single negative event sticks to you forever and requires many more positive events to compensate. I sometimes look at active users, wondering "why doesn't this person have such-and-such ability yet?", and the answer is one declined flag two years ago or something like that, despite dozens of accepted ones since.

What problems would arise if abilities, instead of using Wilson scores, were formulated as:

  • At least N positive events within timeframe T1
  • And no more than M negative events within timeframe T2

The events would be the same as what we use now: posts, suggested edits, flags. Maybe those should be changed too, but I'd like to see if we can just adjust how we count the things we already have for the abilities we already have and if that would make things run more smoothly for our communities.

I originally wrote this as a single timeframe, but I think for some things we'll want to consider the positive record for longer than the negative record. Maybe the timeframes will end up being the same in some cases. If we're going to do this at all, having two values rather than one doesn't seem too complicated.

I'm thinking this as the logic for granting an ability, not logic for doing ongoing assessment to grant or revoke. Currently, abilities are not auto-revoked if you do something that would have caused you to no longer qualify. Moderators can suspend or revoke abilities if needed.

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2 comment threads

Considering both timeframe and last N events (7 comments)
What happens when a user becomes less active? (3 comments)
Considering both timeframe and last N events
trichoplax‭ wrote 20 days ago

We could base this on both proportion of events in a timeframe, and proportion of events in the last N events. I'll use concrete numbers because I find that clearer, but these are just examples - the actual numbers could be different (and different per community):

In order to gain this ability, you need to have 95% positive events over the last 3 months, and 95% positive events over the last 30 events.

You don't get the ability until both of these requirements are met at the same time, but once you get the ability you don't lose it unless a moderator removes it manually.

trichoplax‭ wrote 20 days ago

This means that on a low traffic community 3 months may not be long enough to get 30 events, so gaining the ability may take longer than 3 months.

Similarly on a high traffic community you can't get the ability in a day just because you were able to process 30 events in a day (which means spammers won't get abilities unless they play the long game and behave consistently well for 3 months).

This is similar to the current system where you need a hard minimum such as 30 events, but now once you go past that minimum, older events stop counting against or towards you. Having the timeframe stops someone from covering up bad behaviour with rapid production of good events afterwards, but still allows bad behaviour to age away eventually. If you have negative events, they cease to count against you once both 30 more events and 3 months have elapsed.

trichoplax‭ wrote 20 days ago

I expect this could be made fairer by making it more complex, but personally I would lean towards keeping it as simple as possible while still taking into account both aspects (last 3 months and last 30 events). Wilson score is not immediately intuitive for most people, but the extra complexity is worthwhile in order to present answers in a meaningful order. The same does not apply to gaining abilities - the exact order in which different people gain an ability does not seem important in the way that the order of answers does. For abilities I would prefer to have something sufficiently simple that it can be displayed both graphically and textually in a way that is immediately clear.

trichoplax‭ wrote 20 days ago

When considering what specific values to use for the thresholds, and whether to have separate timeframes for counting positive events and negative events, it might be worth drafting database queries for each approach being considered, and a few different threshold values for each approach. We can then take advantage of the fact that there is a body of data built up already. Even though much of this data is confidential, someone already trusted with database access could run the various queries and share the overall totals without divulging anything private. For example: "With approach A people would have taken on average 5 months and 76 events to gain this ability, whereas with approach B people would have taken on average 4 months and 62 events to gain this ability".

trichoplax‭ wrote 20 days ago

Trying this out for a few different size communities with different traffic levels over time could give an idea of what settings it is useful to have, and what defaults to start them out at. Since these totals don't need to be private, results from each approach could be posted in separate answers for discussion and voting. If the database queries are staggered over time to avoid too much load on the server, these results could even be in the form of charts that show how the outcomes vary as each threshold is varied.

Monica Cellio‭ wrote 20 days ago

I like this suggestion a lot! Let's get it into an answer where it'll be more visible. (Feel free to edit in "friendly amendment suggested in comments:" or some such and then summarize, or make a different answer -- whichever you prefer. Thanks!)

trichoplax‭ wrote 18 days ago

I've now split my comments here across 2 separate new answers - one for the idea of last M months and last N events, and one for the idea of testing with the body of data we already have.