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Comments on Observations about the Incubator "emergence-effect" and deadlocking

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Observations about the Incubator "emergence-effect" and deadlocking

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Why the Incubator does not produce what it is intended for

Example Persona Experience:

  • Newbie-new-user comes to the Incubator as a fan of Movies, Worldbuilding - or ANY other non-existing community right now!

  • A question / the first question that may be inviting to post something was downvoted and closed.

  • Newbie: "Ohh... okay, better not post here. I had my share of such scorchings."

  • Leaves.

Problem

The Incubator is kind of a sandbox where undefined measures of usefulness are applied. This is detrimental to a "real" incubator of ideas!

The downvoting is rooted in the assumption that those posts are not that much favored. BUT the community, which might create a rule to embrace such postings --- does not exist yet.

Broken Concept

There is a term for that in IT: A deadlock. I read about "vicious circle" in some comment recently.

Yes, that is one!

It will repell each and everyone coming here to just post something. But those postings would already constitute the basis for creating a community later.

Right now the Incubator is solely aimed to "attract" people who are willing to "build up a new community against the stream of not having the community". That is just not helpful and very exhausting.

Conclusion

This is not going to work. There has to be a change in the concept of Codidact's representation in the mind of new users that is: the outside world. The Incubator must be streamlined to its intended use.

The same story on a personal note

Feedback (in the incubator !) like "This does not belong on Codidact" or "This should go to meta" is not helpful. How are you supposed to build a community in the incubator if you're always shoving all the content away?? This is total non-sense. But it shows how broken the concept for the incubator is.

Currently it is just the perfect spot to prevent having new communities instead of incubating them.

Existing users - who probably don't even intend to do harm - can cast "vetos" far too early.

Either have positive feedback or don't give any feedback if you are not interested in such a community! Don't preconceive about if this could work or belongs here! It will never, if you post this to new content as the only feedback!

Do not downvote if you are not invested into the idea. And also do not close (in the incubator).

--> There are no people to counter the downvotes (or any other negative feedback) yet (!!) You are effectively destroying the incubation process.

And everybody who should upvote to embrace a new idea, is just not voting at all. They shrug and don't care. That is okay, at least it is not hampering the incubation.

But they who care to not having a new idea for a post or are in doubt about it and downvote, they become the most visible.

There is another IT term for this: Inversion of priority. A sub-kind of a deadlock.

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1 comment thread

You can't say why people aren't voting. (8 comments)
You can't say why people aren't voting.
Olin Lathrop‭ wrote 3 months ago · edited 3 months ago

"everybody who should upvote to embrace a new idea, is just not voting at all."

So you are the official judge of what should be voted on and how!!? You might stop and consider that maybe, just maybe, the non-voters don't think much of the proposal. I know, what a shocker! Some people have the audacity to have different opinions. We can't have that. Maybe you should ask for an auto-correcting voting feature.

Antares‭ wrote 3 months ago

I didn't mean to offend you personally in any way. And I did not promoted myself to be an official judge. And I agree, yes, people have different opinions and I grant that to everyone - including me.

As for the interpretation of the votings: How would you call it, if the voting result shows negative and no upvotes? How is this helpful inside an Incubator which is intended to "incubate" things? There should be at least "some" encouragement to create something new, even if those who read the post are not "convinced" yet. So, I conclude there are more than 2 users here, therefore a -2 cannot be the endresult of everybody. Therefore the majority of users is not voting, which is not helpful.

I don't understand what you mean or the intention is behind a "auto-correcting voting feature". Could you explain that in a sentence or two, please?

Olin Lathrop‭ wrote 3 months ago

I take the negative votes to mean those users think the proposal is flawed. They believe (I presume) that the proposal in its current form would not be a benefit to Codidact, or that it would be a significantly higher benefit if fixed.

Unfortunately, the site proposal mechanism doesn't allow for easy debate on the points. It is possible, but rather cumbersome because you have to post in the meta category. It's then not clear when consensus for a change is reached, who decides that, and who/when should edit the original proposal accordingly. As a result, it's easier to just downvote a proposal that needs lots of work and move on. If that's what's going on, then the message of the downvotes is "needs too much work to bother engaging, shouldn't see the light of day as is".

Antares‭ wrote 3 months ago · edited 3 months ago

Yeah, I figured it would be something like this. Bravo.... how disillusioning. (Not against you, thanks for the reply)

Olin Lathrop‭ wrote 3 months ago

I just went to check the latest site proposals and was reminded that there is no voting on proposals. Users can endorse them at different levels, but can't up or down vote proposals. I had forgotten about that and took it at face value that your proposals were getting downvoted when I wrote my previous comment.

Now I don't understand what you are actually talking about. Your proposals have not been downvoted. Only those users who thought the proposals were good endorsed them. You can't really say why everyone else didn't. They might not be personally interested in the topic, think that it's not a good fit for the site or the Q&A format in general, think the proposal is too flawed to bother engaging, or something else.

Personally, I think your proposals don't fit the Q&A format well and will result in a low signal to noise ratio. Fixing them would require too much change to bother debating the issue. Ignore and move on.

Antares‭ wrote 3 months ago

I am talking about the posts in the Incubator Q&A (questions as well as answers). Not the proposals.

And I am talking about that there is no community yet that could support my claims about the rules being true. So I have no chance of bringing something to light, if I have to fight against the community of the many/few who are reading Meta+Proposals. And probably think about such a community as you did with a signal to noise ratio. That is borderline insultingly downplaying a genuine attempt of establishing a community.

But yeah, I guess you are right. Don't bother and move on.

As for the interpretation of the votings: How would you call it, if the voting result shows negative and no upvotes? How is this helpful inside an Incubator which is intended to "incubate" things?

Unfortunately, not everything turns out to be a good suggestion or addition to the library. That's just the way it is, and downvotes are a signal of that. A downvote does remain the opinion of only one person, though, so they may be mistaken in the end.

Not everyone is going to vote, and that's fair. I often don't vote if I haven't spent time and resources properly understanding what I'm voting for. I also don't vote if I don't think what I'm looking at is so good it deserves an upvote, but neither bad enough to deserve a downvote. That's fair, too.

Olin Lathrop‭ wrote 3 months ago

"posts in the Incubator Q&A (questions as well as answers). Not the proposals."

In that case, people are voting on the specific posts, not passing judgement on the overall site proposal. Questions in the Q&A category of the proposals site are intended to be examples showing both desirable and undesirable questions for the proposed site. The most obvious reason for downvoting is that the user feels the question is NOT the kind that should be allowed on the proposed site. Other reasons for downvotes include that the post is poorly written or formatted.