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Comments on To be constructive, or not to be constructive, that is the question.
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To be constructive, or not to be constructive, that is the question.
After reading this answer, I have concluded that any post and any behavior satisfying the Code of Conduct are welcomed in any Codidact Community.
The Code of Conduct has been written well, and all things are clear in it except the following vague sentences:
We're deliberately not setting out everything that is and isn't allowed - bring your common sense and apply the spirit of this Code.
Always be constructive, especially when giving feedback.
I have had some conversations with some community staff about these sentences and argued against them. I quote some of their opinions and bring my opinion about them just immediately after each of them.
A bit of ambiguity and wiggle room is fine - it allows for the situation being dependent on context. Not everything has to be spelled out or set in stone.
We want to avoid rules-lawyering.
Such statements seem to be very nice. But, the problem is, when and where should we allow people to have their own interpretations of written rules?
If we have a community of right-minded people, such statements are suitable for the community. For example, in academic societies the members have more freedom to interpret the written rules because they are supposed to be right-minded enough to make right decisions.
However, when you deal with a community containing any kind of people, it is not recommended to have fuzzy written rules. For example, we see that statuary laws are clear-cut. Although there may be some disagreements in interpretation of some laws, the community stay alive without any critical law misinterpretation from its members.
Now, Codidact (and any other online communities anyone can join without any restriction but having an email) is a kind of the latter case. So, clear-cut rules are needed for this community to prevent any member from abusing written rules misinterpretations.
Do you think, that you will be suspended here, although you try to act in good faith? And if yes, what makes you think that? (I'm not trying to make you feel "wrong", just want to understand your intentions/assumptions/...)
This is a very good question. Clarifying what I fear, please consider the following example of my real situation:
This post was closed because of being "non-constructive". The user who closed it stated in the comment under this post that they did that because "it was basically a rant." I personally did not have any problem with their opinion about my post, and respect it.
As we know well, many users (including some staff) believe that my meta posts are rants and I am a ranter. With such background, it is expectable that some users (including some moderators) dislike me, so some of them may want to suspend me because of my non-constructive behavior, that is, posting many non-constructive post. No one can question such moderators' decision because they can argue that "constructiveness" is a subjective issue and in their opinions such posts are not constructive.
We empower moderators (or judges in other contexts) to apply them to specific cases. We ensure that there is an appeal process to challenge that application.
(This is the most important part of this post.)
Such an abusable policy also exists on SE. The SE community team trust and empower their moderators to moderate their communities as they like. I do not claim that all moderators abuse their privileges, but if a moderator abuses some privilege, their decision is probably not reverted even if it is wrong because the community team do not want to encourage users to object moderators' (even wrong) decisions.
Some Codidact community staff told me that we will review moderators' decisions if there is some complaint or we have a "Review Panel" and so on. Similar things are also exist on SE in theory; the community team state that you can report such abuses, but no one should expect a reasonable answer from them.
Thus, let us have a set of clear-cut rules to minimize such abuses.
Let us not continue the SE way.
No system of rules can run only on statutory rules. There is always case law, because no set of laws/rules that people …
3y ago
(from now deleted comments, with some changes, on request from the asker) In addition to what Monica said, it may be …
3y ago
I'm all in for using constructive in the Code of Conduct. In a comment to a previous answer, you wrote: > Although …
3y ago
Post
No system of rules can run only on statutory rules. There is always case law, because no set of laws/rules that people can actually manage will ever include everything.
We are trying to write a clear, succinct "statute" about what we expect on our network. We know that some things will require human judgement, which is why it's important, early on, to specify how decisions can be challenged.
You say:
Such an abusable policy also exists on SE.
SE does have policies that can be and have been abused. SE's bigger problem is that they are not required to follow their own policies and have a track record of bypassing them. SE is fundamentally autocratic, as you would expect from a profit-seeking company that owns a closed platform. SE, just like Facebook and Reddit and Quora, can and does do whatever it wants.
I challenge your use of "also". At Codidact we are working hard to prevent that kind of abuse. But we don't do that by specifying every possible case down to the last detail and then being stuck when a troll finds a loophole to exploit; we do it by establishing core principles including ways to challenge decisions.
You linked to a question that was previously closed as "not constructive". It was closed by one regular user and reopened by a staff member. Sometimes people disagree about whether a question should be closed; it was discussed and remedied. We should probably change the name of that close reason (close reasons are planned for reworking already), to avoid causing confusion. Nobody was suspended, and moderators and staff members aim to apply the smallest correction that fixes a problem. A single snarky or ranty comment or post is likely to get dealt with (deleted for the comment, closed for the post). If it happens more than once someone would try to discuss it with the person. If it keeps happening there'd be a warning. Unless something is way over the line, by which I mean things like direct personal attacks or hate speech or something like that, moderators aren't going to jump straight to suspensions. If they do, they should expect it to be challenged and reviewed.
Our communities are made out of people. People are complicated. We have to all be willing to do our best, presume good intent, and discuss disagreements. We have a baseline set of expectations that will over time be augmented by "case law", reviews, and discussions. Unlike on SE, you can expect transparency, honesty, and the willingness to make corrections when we err.
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