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Comments on Observations about the Incubator "emergence-effect" and deadlocking

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Observations about the Incubator "emergence-effect" and deadlocking

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Why the Incubator does not produce what it is intended for

Example Persona Experience:

  • Newbie-new-user comes to the Incubator as a fan of Movies, Worldbuilding - or ANY other non-existing community right now!

  • A question / the first question that may be inviting to post something was downvoted and closed.

  • Newbie: "Ohh... okay, better not post here. I had my share of such scorchings."

  • Leaves.

Problem

The Incubator is kind of a sandbox where undefined measures of usefulness are applied. This is detrimental to a "real" incubator of ideas!

The downvoting is rooted in the assumption that those posts are not that much favored. BUT the community, which might create a rule to embrace such postings --- does not exist yet.

Broken Concept

There is a term for that in IT: A deadlock. I read about "vicious circle" in some comment recently.

Yes, that is one!

It will repell each and everyone coming here to just post something. But those postings would already constitute the basis for creating a community later.

Right now the Incubator is solely aimed to "attract" people who are willing to "build up a new community against the stream of not having the community". That is just not helpful and very exhausting.

Conclusion

This is not going to work. There has to be a change in the concept of Codidact's representation in the mind of new users that is: the outside world. The Incubator must be streamlined to its intended use.

The same story on a personal note

Feedback (in the incubator !) like "This does not belong on Codidact" or "This should go to meta" is not helpful. How are you supposed to build a community in the incubator if you're always shoving all the content away?? This is total non-sense. But it shows how broken the concept for the incubator is.

Currently it is just the perfect spot to prevent having new communities instead of incubating them.

Existing users - who probably don't even intend to do harm - can cast "vetos" far too early.

Either have positive feedback or don't give any feedback if you are not interested in such a community! Don't preconceive about if this could work or belongs here! It will never, if you post this to new content as the only feedback!

Do not downvote if you are not invested into the idea. And also do not close (in the incubator).

--> There are no people to counter the downvotes (or any other negative feedback) yet (!!) You are effectively destroying the incubation process.

And everybody who should upvote to embrace a new idea, is just not voting at all. They shrug and don't care. That is okay, at least it is not hampering the incubation.

But they who care to not having a new idea for a post or are in doubt about it and downvote, they become the most visible.

There is another IT term for this: Inversion of priority. A sub-kind of a deadlock.

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You can't say why people aren't voting. (8 comments)
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You seem to be interpreting the incubator as the home for all questions that don't fit anywhere else, and also as a primary entry point for people new to Codidact. That's not the goal.

The incubator is a place for people interested in specific new communities to ask and answer questions that would fit those new communities. Just as a question can be a good fit or a poor fit on an established community, it can also be a good fit or a poor fit on a proposed community. Because proposals are proposals, where the scope hasn't been fleshed out yet, "off topic" is not generally a factor. But questions can still get valid downvotes for other reasons. There's broad agreement that opinion polls don't work in this format, for example. Or if a question is unclear or missing essential information, people might downvote for that reason.

The Proposals site is not the best place for new users to dive in, unless they are there for a specific proposal. If, for example, you're interested in the Worldbuilding proposal and you invite your fellow worldbuilders to go there to help build it, that's great! But it's not meant to be a "come ask your questions about anything here!" magnet. A lot of sausage gets made as a new community is built -- meta discussions, and testing scope edge cases with actual questions, and drafting and often re-drafting community norms... this is primarily for the people who want to build a thing, not the people who want to consume an already-existing thing.

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Thanks for this input! (5 comments)
Thanks for this input!
Antares‭ wrote 3 months ago · edited 3 months ago

Okay, this sheds light on the problem... Yes, actually, I read the Incubator as being the starting point for "birthing" new communities. Not only from within codidact but also from the outside.

If not in the incubator... where else?

I considered adding a proposal first as a formality, as a first draft. Since the one person that can make a proposal will surely not have produced the final thing. But how should the final proposal evolve if there is no opportunity for people from the outside (you named them "consumers", that is fitting I guess) to join in?

That there are not only fans of such a community among people already on Codidact is clear... but if they do not endorse at least the idea of creating something "new" and instead only downvote... then "how" is this supposed to work?

Currently we are at least 3 invested people on Worldbuilding. One of the existing members showed interest. I think there will be not really more coming unless this is visible to the outside.

Antares‭ wrote 3 months ago · edited 3 months ago

I understand that asking really anything is not the intended use case. But asking anything about a topic in proposal state is the intended use, right? I did not mean anything else but the latter.

The problem I have is that trying to "flesh out" things with members that are not really invested into the idea of for example Worldbuilding are not helping with their concerns. There should be a fence around the "community in the being" so that they can discuss among them. I envisioned a site for that purpose. But the info I got was that this is supposed to be done in the Incubator.

And here I stand now. Also in the wrong place apparently.

In the example of Movies&Literature this is the same thing. Yes, "queries for lists of opinions about movies" is not a primary goal of sites on Codidact right now... but what if the Movies&Literature community-to-be decides to make a section about "movie recommendations". Such a post could be a starting point. Well,okay, maybe I was 3 steps ahead.

Monica Cellio‭ wrote 3 months ago

I didn't mean "only people who are already on Codidact". We need to attract more people to all of our communities. Building communities is kind of a specialized activity -- yes, of course we want people interested in worldbuilding to come help build it here, both people who are already here and people who create new accounts to participate. We also want people who are interested in software development or EE or Judaism or code golf to come participate in those communities that already exist.

Most people are not interested in "all the things", just certain communities. Because the incubator serves all current proposals (dozens at this time), an unfiltered incubator is a poor entry point because it looks like "all the things". I encourage people coming to the incubator for a specific proposal to filter on that tag, and now that it's come up, I'll try to make sure that guidance is more visible.

Monica Cellio‭ wrote 3 months ago

If the Movies community decides to explore recommendations, that's cool -- best thing to do, since it's out of the norm most people expect, would be to start a discussion on meta about it and then ask some questions in the incubator and link them to that meta discussion. Try out the idea, along with the meta discussion of the idea. The community might decide that recommendation questions aren't a good fit but reviews as blog posts fit well, and again, that can be tried out the same way (meta + posts). We enabled the article post type to allow communities to try out blog posts, resource lists, and other supplements to Q&A.

Antares‭ wrote 3 months ago

I tried another take on the topic in Meta as you suggested to start a discussion first. Maybe this way something can be started.