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Comments on Why is there a rep system in Codidact?

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Why is there a rep system in Codidact?

+9
−5

I had visited Codidact quite some time ago when it was still being built. At that time, there weren't many talks about having the reputation system built on this site.

Partly, The reason why Slack communities and Discord communities are so easy-going and helpful has something in common between them both - the lack of any actual rep points.

You don't need a number to show your expertise - your arguments should do that. Treating everyone on an even playing field produces a much more productive debate than any other measure.

I am going to be brutally honest here - I was initially interested because Codidact seemed something new, but now it's another StackExchange in the making.

The rep system is completely useless and negatively affects the flow of debate:

  1. Your arguments should be your support in a constructive debate, not reputation

  2. Trust Levels seem to be a better way (established by upvoted answers and the like) but showing a title rather than a flashy number.

  3. Making it a rep game would lead to lower quality answers and questions as the primary aim would be points, not for spreading knowledge.

  4. People who want to answer questions (and are knowledgable) really need no 'fake internet points' as an incentive - having a trust system would work pretty well giving them extra privileges, while not signifying that they are all-knowing.

Simply put, there is no amount of reasons or arguments that can offset an actual real-life example - StackOverflow has already become what it was always destined for, and now is the last chance for Codidact.

Either you have a smaller range of numbers (1-10) to denote their moderation powers, or you take trust levels. That would be the closest simulation to Slack and Discord while working far better than both by having a formal framework.

Please don't spell death for this forum!

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General comments (1 comment)
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+4
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I largely agree with the answer of Olin Lathrop, but I'd like to put things in a slightly different perspective.

We need a rep system, even if it is not ideal, especially on technical/scientific sites. Why? Because Internet is what it is and no one is forced to reveal its true identity.

Reputation in real world matters, otherwise vocal opinions could swamp sound scientific reasoning outside academic or expert circles, where everyone can evaluate each other statement with confidence and rebut them with sound arguments if necessary.

You say "Your arguments should be your support in a constructive debate, not reputation".

This is overly idealistic and works in real life only between "peers" and with topics whose discussion doesn't need much basic knowledge. That's why, for example, some cunning and intellectually dishonest politicians get away with utter crappy reasoning: people aren't equipped with enough knowledge and competences to understand they are being scammed.

These sites are not only a place for high-level quality discussions about specific topics. They are a place for learning, even for newbies.

Imagine the following scenario.

A newbie (let's call him Lars) asks for an explanation of a difficult topic. Lars is an average 17yo high-school student who is not an English native speaker. Lars could also be a 35yo worker who hadn't got the chance to get higher education in his life, but he's a very passionate amateur. It doesn't matter for this scenario.

Two users, let's call them Bob and Jane, answer with two completely incompatible explanations, both credible at face value.

In real life Jane is an academic with years of experience, Bob is a smart troll who likes to have fun messing with people. Jane's profile faithfully summarizes her resume, and she posts under her real name. Bob's profile is completely fake, not even his name is real, and he boasts about difficult to verify achievements.

How would a newbie know who to trust without the competences to perform extensive cross-validations of information (even assuming he is willing to do so)?

Maybe Lars will trust Jane because she is an "uni prof", but how about the very convincing arguments made by Bob who is a "knowledgeable professional in the field" and happen to be a very clever storyteller.

Without a way for the community to say "Hey Lars, trust Jane, not Bob!" Lars could get very bad information.

And no, just voting on the answers is definitely not enough. Why?

  1. Since statistically most people on a site are newbies, votes on wrong but exceptionally well written answers may swamp votes on right answers (plenty of examples on SE network).

  2. There is a snowball effect: once a wrong answer gains some upvotes, it's difficult for later answers to recover, even if they are right. The Fastest Gun In the West (FGITW) wins, even if they are the evil ones! (Plenty of examples on SE network).

So rep points are, if implemented "correctly", a statistically meaningful way for the community to say "We trust this guy!".

Moreover, it's a way to say "Thanks you guy for your efforts!". In fact the above scenario is extremely depressing for Jane: she spent half an hour researching sources and trying to dumb down the topic for Lars, then she sees Bob's answer skyrocketing above hers.

I had that feeling more than once on EE StackExchange.

Ok, we are adults an we've got thick skin. You can endure that treatment once in a while. But what happens when Bob-like users almost always win? Well, Jane-like users are completely pissed-off and leave the site. After all, why putting on a community site quality content that no one care about, when Jane could put the same content on her blog and maybe get also some revenues by donations and patrons?!?

No one works gratis to be slapped regularly on the face! Well, unless you are the "Someone is wrong on the Internet"-type.

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answer ranking (9 comments)
answer ranking
Monica Cellio‭ wrote over 3 years ago

Thank you for sharing this perspective. I'm concerned about the FGITW/HNQ effect too, where a popular but wrong answer pushes others out of view. In case you haven't noticed this yet, we use a different ordering algorithm for answers here at Codidact to mitigate that. We use a scoring system that takes controversy into account, so a +5/-0 answer will rank above one that's +8/-3 even though they're both "net 5" by simple subtraction. It doesn't address everything but I think it helps.

Lorenzo Donati‭ wrote over 3 years ago

Yes, just today I was reading the help about how the score is calculated. I was a bit puzzled by how my rep was changing (I'm a bit spoiled by the scale of numbers of SE :-). Once I read about that scoring formula all was clear, and the more I experience it the more I like it. Of course rep numbers going high gives you a good feeling, but the lower pace of rep here is almost soothing.

Lorenzo Donati‭ wrote over 3 years ago

I've got a couple of high-score answers on EESE that were well researched and thought-out, but really basic stuff, and they got tons of votes. OTOH I've got some other answers I was very proud of that were really tricky to iron out (with obscure research references and a lot of effort put into them) and that went almost unnoticed. Very disappointing. The system here seems promising in this respect.

Monica Cellio‭ wrote over 3 years ago

I had that experience on SE too at times; if my well-researched answer was later than others, it might not get any attention while the ones at the top kept getting votes because they were at the top. I think the slower pace here helps with that too; nobody can read everything on some of SE's larger sites, but our communities are still small and things are easier to see. I'd like us to grow, of course, steadily and not in an explosion where folks can't keep up. (Please invite your friends. :-) )

elgonzo‭ wrote over 3 years ago

Yeah, it's a form of bikeshedding. Good A's talking about basic stuff invite more upvotes, since many people know about the basic stuff and thus feel confident in evaluating an A for voting. Excellent A's talking about something more complex and complicated receive less upvotes because, well, there are much less people feeling confident/capable about evaluting and voting on such A. My by far most upvoted answer on SO was -and still is- a single-line answer about how to set a bit in an int in C#.

Lorenzo Donati‭ wrote over 3 years ago

And the irony is, on rare occasions, the wrong answer was accepted instead of blatant evidence mine was the right one (with high-rep users commenting on my answer highlighting the fact)! Of course the accepted answer was upvoted even more. On EE that was somewhat manageable. I stopped completely providing answers on StackOverflow because too many times clueless people got the upper hand to quickly in a thread. That's the curse of having too many users.

Lorenzo Donati‭ wrote over 3 years ago

Monica Cellio‭ Yep. I hope we get to have a relevant traffic in the future. If the network get to "lift off" we should think of mechanisms to keep that from happening (too many times). Probably that's unavoidable once you get past some number of users. Maybe keeping the ratio "active reputable users"/"clueless users" high is key. Not an easy task. It's more social engineering than sw engineering, although some site mechanics could be more helpful than others.

Monica Cellio‭ wrote over 3 years ago

One site mechanic that should help us that we decided from there very beginning that answer "acceptance" is broken on SE. We sort by score, no pinning, and when we finish the feature, anybody will be able to say "worked for me" not just the person who asked the question. (I'm on mobile right now so don't have a link for you: search for "reactions", a post by Luap42.)

Lorenzo Donati‭ wrote over 3 years ago

"answer "acceptance" is broken on SE" I agree completely.